By the way, see this article: Congress is holding H-1B boost 'hostage,' says Oracle lobbyist for more info on the issue.

The globe has become one market.   Fair wage for a corporation is what gets a certain level of work for the least cost.  Fair wage for an employee is one that meets their standards of living.

I want corporations to pay the least and sell me quality products and services.  If those fail to please me corporations will lose business and have to pay more.  I want to be paid fairly for the work I do.  If I'm not getting that I need to either work harder, communicate to my employer why I deserve more, or find somewhere else to work.

I'll tell you what I think is the biggest part of the problem in hiring U.S. citizens . . . minimum wage.  Get rid of that and you'll see fair wages.  You might not be happy what the market thinks fair is though.  

Trying to live, work and produce either products or provide services in todays world and plan for tomorrow using yesterdays standards just does not work. As Zubaz points out, it's a world market, we and the world need to realize it.  

It IS BS, dude.  The new immigrants coming over on H1-B visas not only work for a much smaller wage, they are almost indentured servants, if they want to remain here legally, that is.  They can't quit their jobs without facing deportation, so they not only earn less, they can be treated like utter crap and have little immediate recourse.

There's no damned shortage of technical workers in this nation.  Simon's been looking for employment for 6 flippin' months now, and submitting resumes nationwide.  In the five years He's been here, He's not been offered a single permanent position, just endless contracts at half of what His skills are worth, contracts without ANY benefits at all, no health insurance, paid holidays, retirement plans, nothing.

It's far cheaper to hire contractors and/or H1-B workers than it is to hire, train, and retain permanent citizen employees who might have the audacity to expect a tiny bit of job security in return for their hard work.

Why do you shop Wal-Mart? (Maybe not you, but a great number of Amerricans)

The answer is the same. Cheaper prices. Bumping the limit for the H1B drives down wage costs, something employers like. The rest is just a smoke screen.

Brad as much said it before. It is a lot cheaper to hire an experienced person than to hire a non-experienced person and train them. And if you can get that experience for less, you buy the cheaper product (all else being equal).

The question in my mind is are these individuals really experienced?  In most cases I would bet NOT.  The only real advantage is the one that LittleWhip covers in her comments -- the fact that the employers can basically enslave these employees and keep them beholden to them for their place in this country.  They can pay them lower wages and the slaves, uh, employees can't complain and must accept it or be booted out of the country.

Why the Congress would ever oblige these slave traders should be beyond me, but it's not -- they are obliging the Oracles and Microsofts of the world because they get tons of money donated to their campaigns and tons of attention and TLC from the lobbyists that these companies employ.  They basically whore themselves out and accept bribery from these companies so that the companies can do what they wanted to do and not really have to worry, even as the double talking pols tell the citizens that they are doing their best to protect their jobs, and keep those jobs from going overseas.

That a single Democrat would ever support expanding H-1B visa offerings should be enough to have all members of all labor organizations swearing to never vote for them again.  Republicans, well, most people already know and expect that Republicans were long since bought and paid for by big business. Of course the voters don't really pay attention and wouldn't decide on this particular issue, even if they are too stupid to realize it is costing them jobs and opportunities.

You would lose too. They do have experience. Working at a lot lower wage (in India, China or wherever). They work for peanuts to get the experience, then come to America to get the bucks.

Experience working for peanuts, sure.  Real experience on systems here?  Maybe.  Still, it doesn't matter if they have experience or not, the companies that want these employees are still more than willing to waste a bit of the money they spend on these employees to train them.  After all, they'll just hold that training cost against the employee and pay them that much less.

The scene looks a lot different then I have ever thought. I've just passed school and this year I am giving entrance exams of several engg. colleges. The IITs are one of the best engg. colleges in the world. There are several top-notch companies who come for on-campus selection in these colleges. Having read all this, I think its better to be in your own country because the far world isnt that much of sweet as it looks from the far distances.

Whats wrong if one can develop something great for the world while company providing a platform. These companies are not making life easier of a single country. They are providing comfort to the whole globe without any partiality. I love Stardock as much as you all do. I want to work with them, develop something cool for customization. I dont know where from nation, caste or creed comes in. It all must depend on the qualification and caliber.

Ya, as far as the wages are concerned then the people must raise their voice for equal wages to all then the selection for a job will be purely based on the caliber and qualification.

I think there are some misconceptions about H-1B visas being spread here:

1) Not everyone can get one.  The employee has to prove credentials and the employer has to prove a case for the worker to get a Visa.

2) An employee can leave to another company when on a visa, they just need the next company to pick up on their sponsorship.

3) You can't underpay somebody who is on a visa.  The wage that you pay has to be within a certain rage of the current wage in the geographical area of employment.

Why do companies bring people in on visas?  Well, I know we do it because of talent.  As an example, I have a 3D artist that is absolutely amazing who works on contract from another country.  I'm working on bringing him over on a visa.  Our games team, on the other hand, has been searching for months for a decent 3D artist to hire.  We have spent thousands of dollars trying to find a good candidate- spent more than what a visa costs, and still don't have an employee.

You can't always "train" employees.  You can't teach somebody to have talent.  Even programmers have a great divide between talented (no matter the age) and simply "trained" or even experienced programmers.

I, personally, don't see bringing talent from other countries into our as a bad thing.  American was built on immigration.  I rather have the talent over here in the US versus in some other country.

 

Go Angie. What she said? Yeah, it's true stuff.

I actually happen to have a H-1B visa.

I wanted to work at Stardock. Stardock wanted me to work at Stardock. It took eight months to get all the legal complexities sorted out. And we were lucky, time wise. Fortunately I found a relatively productive way to spend my time.

It is a big hassle, at least for small companies. Yet they still do it because that is what they have to do to get the employees that they want. Maybe big companies are abusing it, but I would suggest that this is not true for most of them.

Places like Google and Microsoft have a huge need for talent - and at the top level, it is limited, and (arguably) cannot be trained. You know the people who were always at the top of the class - not just because they studied hard, but because they lived the subject? The "naturals"? Those are the people Microsoft and other companies want to hire. And they want to do it out of college, because otherwise they will be snapped up by other companies and may never come on the market again.

On a practical note, I am the sort of person you want coming to your country. I pay many thousands each year in taxes (without representation ); it would be more if I didn't invest a third of my salary in my retirement funds, mostly in the stocks of US companies. I contribute to charity and participate in cultural events. I don't cause trouble. And yet it was hardly easy or quick for me to get in.

Now, maybe you see this as a good thing. Indeed, you can make it harder for people like myself to get in, but doing so may reduce the ability for US firms to compete on a global scale. If I wasn't working for Stardock, there's a fair chance I'd have ended up working for a UK competitor - or founding one.

I would also note that most developed countries outside the US actively subsidize university-level education, and hence the US is getting quite a bargain when it imports talent from them. This benefits the US as a whole more than it does individuals, but make no mistake - it is a benefit.

If you really want to solve the problem, make it easier for people like myself to get green cards, rather than H-1B visas. That way, you'll be far more likely to keep the people who have skills that make it worthwhile for companies to import them, and you'll end up with more skilled Americans with money, which will itself generate more jobs of all kinds. There is room for us all here.

I don't want to belittle the problems that some people have finding work, but from what I have seen, the people with real passion for and ability in the IT field rarely have to look all that far for a job. The right jobs come looking for them. You may have to be willing to move, though hopefully not 3800 miles as I did.

KarmaGirl and GreenReaper answered this post exceptionally well.   

In this day and age, truly, there has to be room for everyone folks. Come on, think about, this is not only ours but everyones future.  

GreenReaper's post - QFT!

And to see how easily these rules are circumvented, check out this video of lawyers advising just how to do it.

WWW Link

The Dept of Homeland Security is overlwhelmed with backlogged applications for every type of visa, (it took my Husband over four years to get a permanent green card, four years and many thousands of dollars.)

Now, I'm not saying Stardock engages in these practices, (shown in the short video linked above) but many large companies do, and for obvious reasons.



It's a nightmarish process, Angie, just like any other dealing with DHS/INS. They have to find a company that's qualified to do so and who is willing to pick up the expense, and then the lengthy paperwork process begins. (see Green Reaper's comment above.) It could take a year or longer for your case to be considered, in the meantime you'd better be punching the clock at your original employer's office or you'll be in violation of the conditions placed on your Visa, a deportable offense.

In addition, finding another willing and qualified sponsor is going to be hindered by the fact that you're leaving one in the first place. You're only as good as your last contract, (or reference) and most H1B's are only good for a few years at a time.

I think a lot of potential employers would look rather dimly on somebody who couldn't stick it out that long...unless the applicant can prove that conditions were pretty heinous.

I don't advocate the elimination of all H1B visas, not at all. I'd far rather import intelligent and educated professionals and do so legally, than allow one more landscaper or hotel maid trudge across the border to steal work from our most vulnerable citizens, poorly educated blacks.

I will say this, though. The H1B program has been and will continue to be abused (if you haven't done so yet, watch that video) and with the state of our immigration system today I can see no justification for expanding it, much less permanently, as is being suggested in Congress now.

BTW- (for you techy tpyes)...My Husband continues to look for work. He's a legal permanent resident (ten year green card), has an MA in Social Sciences and a Master's in Political Philosophy. He changed careers midlife (was pursuing a professorship) and has almost 10 years experience in digital cartography, mostly in the utilities sector, (gas and electricity.) He has experience with ESRI's ARC programs, GE's SmallWorld, and AutoCad (2006 and prior.) His record is spotless and His references are glowing.

I challenge those of you who claim there's no shortage of 'IT or technical' work in this country to send us a job lead that results in an interview.

(And don't even start cutting and pasting from Monster, that place is overrun with amateur 'recruiters' who post ads without the employer's knowledge and contact applicants with jobs they have no authority to represent. All they do, then, is forward your resume on and charge the employer a fee if they hire you, which the employer is not likely to do since they never asked for this recruiter's services in the first place. The big job boards have been infested with these scumbags. Half the time they don't even speak english.)